National Free Flight Society

SEN 3011

  1. B Flyoff Window
  2. Where to find the Euro Champs
  3. But I’m flying the remaining days

B Flyoff Window

plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose

There is a posting on the F1B group on FB by Can Tezcan about a possible change to the F1B fly off rule.  I was considering putting sthis in SEN.  It got 88 comments and then Can closed it for further comments saying the discussion was going in circles. This was then followed by an associated posting from Bob Piserchio , that so far has on 40 or so comments.

Issue , that with the new 7 minute fly off window, the shorter time significantly increases the likelihood of a zero because breaking a motor while winding is common and it is harder to get another motor wound.

Comparison with other classes. While other classes have potential mishaps such as break a towline or a motor failing to start these are less likely in general and less random than breaking a F1B motor.

Key disputed issue.  It was suggested by some that a breaking motor is always caused by some form of sportsman error, either being too greedy and winding too hard or not smoothly enough or by insufficient care pep of the motor.  This disputed by a number of leading F1B sportsman who gave examples from experience  of random motor breakages at low winds.

But we just changed the rule.  We did change the rule from one that permitted some winding before the start of the fly off window.  Because it was found in practice that this rule was too complex and difficult to understand let alone enforce.

So out of the 120 plus comments here is a selection. Note that we have not included what every one said  and have tried to summarize key points

This is what Can said that started it all

Can Tezcan

Dear community this time I want to post a rule change proposal for F1B for rubber winding on fly-off. I would kindly ask you to read first carefully, before you give a comment, like “it was like that and changed” etc.
In F1A, C, P and Q a competitor can make his model completely “ready to fly” before the fly off starts.
F1A can hang 4 models on 4 lines and open the lines on the ground, competitor only need to take the desired line and tow. In case of “attempt” he can immediately grab the next ready line and tow again. Towing can be as short as some 30 seconds.
In F1C and P competitor can make 4 models ready for the fly-off full of tank, only start the motor and launch. Normally starting the motor in C and P should not be more than 30 seconds.
In F1Q competitor can put 4 full charged LiPo’s into 4 models and make them ready to fly before fly-off.
if you consider all these classes, only F1B must wait rubber in the hand, that the fly off starts to wind one rubber. Making an F1B ready to fly takes 2 to 2,5 minutes. Which means competitor uses 30 to 35% of his time only to make the model “ready to fly” instead of using this time to find good air.
And in case of an attempt or rubber blown in the fuselage on the last 2 minutes of fly-off it is hard to mostly impossible to make another modell ready to fly.
So my proposal for F1B fly-off rule, is not telling how much rubber to wind etc. it should contain:
* An F1B competitor can make his allowed and registered models “ready to fly, including winded rubber in fuselage” before fly-off starts.
This should avoid any misunderstanding of the rule. Of course if one has a better option/recommendation, I would like to consider it too.
I will try to file this proposal via my own NAC.
If you agree with me, please consider to send this proposal also via your own NAC to FAI/CIAM that we can get an equal opportunity like other classes.

Editor’s Note , Can has got a lot of “help”.

Then this is part of discussion way further down

Alex Andriukov

I would suggest to leave 7 minutes Flyoff window. There is a reason for this. Remove any limitations on rubber winding. There is no good reason for this and it is next to impossible to control in the regular rounds. I witnessed the timekeepers at World Champs did not allow the flier to launch because they did not see him winding the motor. They forced him to unwind and wind the new motor (few minutes of lost time). Practically the rule is simply ignored lately and not enforced in a regular rounds anyway.

 Alex Andriukov

For the Flyoff, I would suggest to announce 5 minutes before the beginning of the round. This will give enough time to prepare spare motors and allow to keep the same 7 minutes launch window as other classes have.

 Riho-Ats Saatväli

3 min winding window + 7 min flyoff = too complicated and just some headache to organizers. New timekeepers are confused every time on F1B day flyoff, extra audio files and timing to do for organizers etc.
7 min flyoff + no winding before = too low time for some (especially juniors)
Remove all rubber restrictions = just completely silly
only F1B flyoff 10 min long = i expect most people to be happy with it

 Aram Schlosberg

I think we should distinguish between two windows – a WINDING window and a FLYING window.
In regular rounds, the two are identical. So one can’t start winding before the round begins. And once the round ends, so does winding.
In flyoffs the windows PARTIALLY overlapp. The winding window is 10 minutes, the flying window is 7 minutes, starting exactly 3 minutes into the winding window. A flier who wind during the first three minutes in the winding window could not launch before the flying window commences.
Everybody (flyers, timer and organizes) will be more relaxed, no one is counting how many motors were wound. All will have the exact same 7 minutes to fly. The fliers who claim they can wind in 30 seconds won’t gain a longer flying window.
However, in a 10-minute wind/fly window that many here support, favors the super FAST winders. They can launch early while others are still winding their first motor.

Tapio Linkosalo

“However, in a 10-minute wind/fly window that many here support, favors the super FAST winders. They can launch early while others are still winding their first motor.”
I’d call this “choosing your tactics”.

Tony Mathews


Tapio Linkosalo


(more discussion omitted)

Summary from Tapio

Tapio Linkosalo

So, essentially in this discussion we have two schools of though.
One is that winding the motor is an independent process of the flight, just preparation like charging the battery, unwinding the towline, or filling the fuel tank. You just prepare your model, wait for the horn to blow, and the competition is about picking the air during the fly-off round.

The other school considers winding the motor an elementary part of the task of flying F1B. Thus the flying also contains the element of choosing how fast you wind and to what percentage of the estimated breaking of the motor you choose to wind. From this point of view it makes sense to include the motor winding time to the fly-off period.
I’m not saying that one approach or the other is “better”, even though personally I find the latter more interesting.

Editor’s suggestion …. What say an organizer of a Wolrd Cup Event later in the years gets the ok from the FFTSC to try an alternate approach at their event?


Where to find the Euro Champs

2022 FAI F1ABC European Championships for Free Flight Model Aircraft – Prilep MKD (16-20 Aug)

It looks like will be helping the organizer with IT support, a positive sign.

But I’m flying the remaining days

From:Ian Kaynes


The 2 videos are the only ones coming from here, I will be flying on the remaining 2 days. They were just an experiment during the Junior Champs – with all the defects of being hand held and loosing focus on the model when against the background of sky.


Editor’s Comment

Ian, we appreciate the contribution, I did not realize that you were on the GB for the F1E Euro Champs, congrats on making the Fly Off. I thought you did well with the video in spite of the limited equipment.

This is  a very good example of how it not practical to report when you are taking part. To get a good report on an event you need a dedicated reporter, photographer and camera operator.  The primary focus of the competitor, team manager and helpers is to do well in the event.  With reduced number of supporters these days it is tough to get on the field reporting during the event. Should be high on the organizer’s to do list to get some one to put the results on the internet and available to the press.