National Free Flight Society

SEN 2445

  1. Further clarifications – Chaussebourg
  2. Still need a tie breaker – Cuthbert
  3. Rule makers … ? – Carter
  4. Reviewing the current options – van Wallene
  5. DT flyoffs one more time – Schlosberg
  6. And mundanely Barron Field Update from Vic Nippert regarding the FAC meet

Further clarifications

Thank you gentlemen for your comments!

Just a few more things: the world cup points are awarded by the world cup coordinator In Kaynes, from the results sent by the organisers.

It happens sometimes that the results are not clear or not even correct… Then, Ian asks for more details, even looking at the score cards…!

Anyway, he is the only one person to award the W/cup points and update the W/cup classification, so no problem, the rules are applied!

Some more things about Leslie comments:

No, the contest director is not allowed to do what he wants: HE MUST APPLY THE RULES! And if he does not do it, there is also a rule in the sporting code which says that if a world cup contest is not run according to the rules, that contest may be out of the world cup calendar for the next year! This has happenned at least once in the past, but to my opinion it should happen more often!!!

One more thing: Leslie, I agree that we want our sport to be recognized as any other sport (in France: FFAM is a member of the French Olympic Committee and every year, our aeromodelling World Champions, individual and teams are invited for a special award with all the World Champions of other sporting Federations!)

Yes, I fully agree, and CIAM is just a part of the FAI which is recognized as THE International Body for all aviation sports! We do have international rules: “the Sporting Code”, which is respected by the “Tribunal du Sport” for dispute between sportsmen and Federations, and THAT SPORTING CODE must be applied properly.

If, in the sporting code, anybody does not agree with a rule, he (or She)has the right and the possibility to make a proposal for changing the rules, first through his (or her) Federation (NAC) and if nationally agreed, to the CIAM : every year before 15 November !

Otherwise: no other solution that to go by the Sporting code!



Still need a better tie breaker
From: John Cuthbert

I feel I have to respond to Pierre Chaussebourg comments regarding D/T fly
offs. I have just re-read my article and no where do I say that the
Sporting Code do not have the rules regarding fly offs. What I actually
said and I quote “The existing rules (there is my acknowledgement that the
rules exist) clearly do not, and cannot provide the answers that contest
directors are sometimes faced with a fly off times.” In other words what I
am saying is that the current rules are not fit for purpose and so I
suggested that the CIAM revisit this issue to try and achieve a more
workable solution. Regarding the issue of sharing the points as per the
existing rules. Not one competitor at the pre fly off meeting at the Equinox
Cup was in favour of sharing the points which suggests they are not happy
with the existing rule. To award the trophy to a lady flyer (sexist), the
youngest flyer, etc. etc., (and should include anyone with a physical
impairment, we must be politically correct these days) is possible but very
unsatisfactory. Every effort should be made to establishing a WINNER. That
is what all sports around the world strive to do. Not to have seven winners.

Pierre says to have a D/T fly off is a stupid idea. WHY. He
declines to say why. I reiterate what I previously said. The D/T fly off
includes all the elements that contribute to selecting a winner ie. model
performance, launch altitude, model trim and air picking etc. If we discard
the dethermalised part of the flight which can be manipulated, and say
measure altitude then this includes all the elements that eventually
determine the winner.

Finally, and I did not want to mention this in my first article, but
feel it is very relevant given Pierre’s comment “READ THE BOOK AND STICK TO
THE RULES!” from our dear CIAM President, Ian Kaynes. Ian was present and
competing in F1Q at the Equinox Cup, although not involved in the fly offs.
I had a consultation with him prior to the meeting with the fly off
participants. Given the options we were faced with at the time he agreed
that a 2 minute fly off was the best option open to us. So I say to you
Pierre that there are times when the rule book is not fit for purpose and
should be re-visited. This certainly is one of them. The World Cup
competitions and indeed World and European Championships are littered with
occasions when sticking to the rule book has been abused but in the hope of
achieving a fair and sporting result.

Ok, I have said enough, I don’t fly Free Flight anymore but volunteer to C/D events, which is my way of
putting something back for the many years I enjoyed when I was competing.

Best Regards, JOHN CUTHBERT.

Rule makers … ?
From : John Carter

Hi interesting comments on the events that have used a DT fly off. Yep not as sporting code and yep effects the points.

But ! we need the rule makers to take note listen to what’s happening and react in fact become proactive and sort the problem .

As I said in previous post the world as changed and more and more we will see this type of fly off so as it is not popular but it does give a chance to have a result . Any  contest that ends with no fly offs and a number of competitors with a full score declared as first is mad stupid and a big no result . Remember not every one who enters w cup events is interested in winning the World Cup itself but want to win individual events because these events hopefully attract a quality entry !

We talk about the event as if the points are what the event is about I doubt for many that’s not the case as with any annual multi event championship the real contenders are but a few and to be honest with the ridiculous number of events we have that are called World Cup events for an amateur sport the number is excessive .

The whole situation needs a revamp and soon. I for one would not like to spend time money and a deal of effort going to contests that would just end post rounds with more than one clean You need a winner and lower places . Let’s find a solution ?

John Carter UK

Reviewing the current options
From: Allard van Wallene

Dear SCAT,

I fully agree with Pierre. Because a DT fly off was ‘allowed’ some years ago, more organizers are adopting this routine because there is no one (yet) stopping them to do so. It is not in accordance with the Sporting Code, period!

The sporting code allows space to get a ranking but some organizers do not choose to (or simply cannot) use it (e.g. next early morning fly off). If an organizer can not finish a fly off the subsequent morning, then why organise a World Cup if compliance with the sporting code is not possible beforehand? And if flyers booked a flight the next day or have other obligations, that is their problem and neither the organisers nor the Sporting Code’s.

On the other hand, an organiser can set a regular fly off max of, say, 9 minutes. The sportsmen can of course always decide to DT early in order not to risk their model. It is even possible that all fly off participants mutually (contest organizer excluded!) agree to DT at, say, 2 minutes. After all, according to the Sporting Code the flight time is from launch to landing. But the organizer should never facilitate this, it should not go beyond a ‘gentleman’s agreement’.

As to DT descent rates, for F1B and F1C the flat descent speed is determined by surface area and weight of the model and the rate of sink/rise the model is in. This makes for a pretty even playing ground and good air / light models are at an advantage just like they would be in regular flight. For F1A it is a totally different matter as most adopt a ‘spiral type’ DT which can be fast but also slow depending on the angle of the stabilizer. But other types can also be witnessed like a flat DT (e.g. like F1B and F1C’s) or even some weird kind of helicoptering style where the model spins around its CG like a boomerang hardly coming down. I have heard from flyers adjusting their stab angle for a slow descent during such fly offs, clearly not the way we want to decide a world cup event.


DT flyoffs one more time
From :Aram Schlosberg

The “rules” prescribe averaging the points across the clean fliers if the organizer scraps the flyoffs. This means that those that would have placed above/below the average would get less/more points – handicapping the better flyers in terms of their overall WCup standings.

Missing in this SEN discussion are the opinions of those who actually flew in a DT-flyoff. These flyoffs test performance and air picking and are completely fair. (Last year in Sweden I started as a complete skeptic, but was converted after watching one in real time.)

Also missing in the discussion is the fact that a DT-flyoff bring closure and end a contest on a high public note. (Flyoffs are a public spectacle.)

To Tapio’s point that DT drop rates can be manipulated. The rules could require posting the DT stab angle on the model. And in the cases of an unusual DT pattern (spinning or tumbling) the stab DT angle should be verified, potentially leading to a disqualification. (Placing with a tumbling DT is a public Pyrrhic victory in my opinion.)

Every Sunday contest has the inbuilt potential of holding mid-day flyoffs. (The custom of holding a first flight to the ground is flawed by NOT being held in a 7-minute flying window. Another drawback is that the winner can be pre determined after the first flight.)

Mid-day 6 and 8 minute flyoffs (an oxymoron) should be replaced with a DT-flyoff. It tests performance and air picking without long retrievals and models off the field.


Barron Field Update from Vic Nippert regarding the FAC meet
From: Andrew Barron

Free Flight friends,

The FAC meet  is now this
weekend, June 2 and 3 at Barron Field.  Enjoy!

For AMA and FAI fliers remember also the Skyscraper Annual that is June 23
and 24, with the same weekend schedule as we used for the Hatcheck