National Free Flight Society

SEN 2159

Table of Contents – SEN 2159

  1. Q on FB
  2.  2 Tangent America’s Cup events

Q talk on FB …
Starting with Aram Schlosberg?

How high did Q models get in Sweden?

Does anyone have actual altimeter information of the altitudes reached by Q models at the Swedish Cup contests, particularly in the flyoffs? I’ve read guesstimated of 130 – 150 meters. (At 150 m I would need binoculars.) Unfortunately, this has put the event’s energy multiplier (4J/gr.) into (political) play by the mediocre performance crowd. 

Tony Mathews 150 meters is easily visible overhead Aram. You don’t need binos! 😉 I do have a friend with a new F1Q that has achieved 150 meters from altimeter data. So it is possible. 

Ross Jahnke Leave Q alone for a few more years Aram.

Jack Murphy in good air I have to squint to see my model at the end of the power allotment at my practice field. In bad air, its not very high………/listorama/sets/72157606132193344/ 

Jack Murphy My latest Q bird is the sister to this one, built side by side, one trimmed for Q, one for A/B…

Yuda Avla I think Q should be left alone for at least two more years, I myself like the performance that potetially can be achieved under the current rules. It actually gives me an excuse to invest in development and hardware, once you start cutting into that, two things happen, you stiffel development options, and reduce potential participation. My opinion, we should concentrate our efforts to make F1Q a world champs event, and fly it at the same day as F1C, so no further investment in time and lodging will be needed, since F1C has the least competitors. Start changing the rules again will render many current models obsolete, such as the high powered fast climbers some are flying currently, you will make the class an electric F1B at best! 

Paul Güngör Seren The current rules are really good! I also like them. Smooth climbs are possible. My model reach 90 – 100 m in calm air.

Mar Ci After the rules changed to 4J/g and 40s, the F1Q “went directly in a corner”. By putting the energy limit on 4J/g the motor duration should have stayed on 20s. Now there is no escape without losing F1Q pilots, because there are only 2 ways to reduce the potential:

– 3J/g 40s —->kills the straight up guys (my opinion)

-4J/g and 20s —–>kills some 40s guys

At first we have to find a nice solution for reducing the heights in a fly off. In sweden I used the whole weekend my short model (1400mm span, 180mm chord rectangle) for thermal conditions during a day. And in the fly offs it reached 6 to nearly 8 min, always out of vision behind the forest. So the potential with 4J/g and 40s is very high, maybe okay during the day but a way to high for a nice fly off. To set the limit at 3J just for the fly off, like we do in germany, could be a way, but like i mentioned before the variety of different styles of flying will suffer a lot.

At this point its very hard to think about changes no matter which direction.

Per Grunnet There is a third possibility to reduce performance, that will solve the problem without making any models obsolete. We can reduce the energy to 3J/g and reduce the allowed motorrun to 30 seconds.

This will probably affect both slow and fast climbers similarly.

Mar Ci Yes thats indeed a nice way to think about! Most of the slow climbers would only have to Set the limiter to 3J. The motor run will probably be automatically on 30s or lower without changing the motor setup. So we would have just up to 10s less motorrun and that means less performance

Aram Schlosberg Mar Ci’s suggestion of a flexible set of energy multipliers makes a lot of sense. These could be adjusted to field size and flyoffs. (The original American Q format was to step down the motor run in flyoffs.) Unlike B and A events where step downs in energy are not simple (motor weights and line lengths) changing the energy multiplier in Q entails simple programming – akin to changing the DT time. My set of energy multipliers is {4J, 3.5J, 3J/gr}.

Chris Edge With the problems of long flyoffs affecting many sites these days, the idea of reducing the capability of the model for FOs is a good idea. For E-36 they got it right from the begining with the shorter run and I would advocate changes that have the sam…See More 

Per Grunnet A proposal for flyoff-rules in F1Q could be:

First flyoff 3J/g, max 30 seconds motorrun, and 300 seconds max.

Second flyoff 2J/g, max 20 seconds motorrun, and 300 seconds max. …See More 

Aram Schlosberg Chris and Per are working in the right direction – namely, a flexible set of energies to suit particular flying conditions and flyoffs. Personally, I’m not thrilled with anything under 3J for Q, and like the initial set {4J, 3.5J, 3J/gr}. ….. A similar approach could apply to A {40 or 45 m lines with the line’s length posted on the pennant} and B {30 gr, 25 gr motors} STRICTLY for flyoffs, at the discretion of the CD. In the absence of a flexible energy approach, we will end up with shorter tow lines and 25 gr motors.

Per Grunnet Flexible energy does not change the models trim in F1Q. Variable rubber weight will in most cases affect the trim in F1B, and variable line length will probably demand a change in launch technique in F1A. So the idea is best in Q.

And most needed in Q, as the best Q-models seem to fly around 10 minutes with 4J/g and 40 seconds motorrun.

Jack Murphy I don’t use an el but going from 4 joules to 3 for the flyoff would be very easy to do. I am not opposed to it.

Jack Murphy for q novices it would just mean reducing your run time to 75% for the first flyoff……

Ross Jahnke Ugh.

Yuda Avla Reducing the motor run time may adversly affect the fast climbing model transition capability, the cruiser will most likely be un affected. Get this class to a world championship status, first!

Ross Jahnke It won’t be on the WC slate if there is uncertainty surrounding the event rules

Jack Murphy where are we in the rules cycle? there is no uncertainty, just people thinking about proposals down the road. How many flew off in Sweden(?), getting back to Aram’s original rhetorical question…. could be the rules are just fine as they are unless everyone is maxing out..

Mar Ci We are still discussing his post. His first question about the heights has been answered – 130-150m is easy possible. Second he mentioned the energy limit and now we are discussing this. It’s fine I guess 

Jack Murphy To me it seems the big picture question is- should fly-off max times be lengthened or should fly-off motor runs be shortened. I would opt for shorter motor runs for many reasons already stated above (small fields, long chases, yada yada yada…).

Ron Aßmuß Bei senkrecht Start im Moment 100-Max.130m bei 5,5 sec.. …wieviel Start geht ein F1A oder F1B ??? 😀 😀

Yuda Avla Agreed Ross, we do not need any flux in rules, look at the mess that previous rules made! If we need anything, is maybe a flyoff protocol that may include stipulations involving field size, in conjunction with motor run, and flight times. The use of an energy limiter is almost a given in my book, and they are quite affordable, as much as RDT.


NW FAI Challenge
August 20~21, 2016
Tangent Oregon

An Americas Cup Event

Sanction No. 1375


Saturday August 20: F1G, F1H, F1J, and F1Q

Five 90 Minute rounds

Round One Start Time: 7:30 AM

To be flown in conjunction with Tangent Classic Meet

Sunday August 21: F1A, F1B, F1C/P

Seven One hour rounds

Round One Start Time: 8:00 AM

First round Max 240 seconds-Weather permitting



Perpetual Trophy (Watercolor by Sarah Brandt Tracy) for F1B

Embroidered Hats to Third Place All Events

Entry Fees: $20 First Event and $10 for Additional Events

(Entry Fee Waived for Juniors)

Contest Director: Blake Jensen


Assistant CD: Pierre Brun

To get to the site: Take 228 exit off

I-5, Head East toward Lebanon, Turn

Right at Seven Mile Lane and Follow

the Signs to this Year’s Field

RV/Tent Camping Allowed on the Field

Please Check with CD for Permitted Location

WMC Sponsored Spaghetti Feed at the Grell Farm Saturday Evening

Beginning at 6:30 PM Directions Available at Registration

No Moto Flapping Allowed




AUGUST 19th 2016 F1 ABC& P

AUGUST 20th 2016 F1 GHJ&Q





Wayne Drake Perpetual Trophy for high time F1 A



(Additional round time to fly both mini contests

ENTRY:  $20 F1 ABC…$10 F1 GHJPQ, Jr’s Free

Prizes:  Glass, Points only for P, Q, & J based on Historic Entry Levels

  CD’s:          RON MCBURNETT 503-551-3173

E mail

No Moto Flapping Allowed 

Contestants must adhere to field/retrieval rules or face disqualification from the meet.



Roger Morrell